Talk:William Sterndale Bennett

Old Comment

Perhaps this article should also mention that Sterndale Bennett's grandson, Thomas Case Sterndale Bennett, was also a composer, partcularly of popular songs in the Edwardian period. -- Ian Rutt (21/04/05)

Meeting with the remarkable Mendelssohn

A further London performance was given in June 1833. ... Among the audience was Felix Mendelssohn, who was sufficiently impressed to invite Bennett to the Lower Rhenish Music Festival in Düsseldorf.

Query: My Grove (5th ed and getting increasingly dated) says the concerto had its second performance on 30 March 1833, in the Hanover Square Rooms, and that this was where Mendelssohn met WSB and invited him to Germany. They describe the date 30 March as "a crucial one". I don't doubt other performances occurred, such as one in June, and that Mendelssohn was present at one or more of them.

Can we get clarity on exactly when this important first meeting happened? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:27, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The London premiere of the D minor concerto was indeed on 30 March 1833, but the current Grove (online edition) says it was at the 26 June 1833 performance that Mendelssohn was present and invited Bennett to Germany. The ODNB concurs, as does Bennett Jr in his 1907 biography of his father. Coming at it from the other direction, in his biography of Mendelssohn R Larry Todd says that Mendelssohn met Bennett "during the summer of 1833", which is consistent with the above rather than with Blom's Grove. Moreover, in the current Grove this same Todd says that on the first of his two visits to Britain during 1833 Mendelssohn didn't arrive in London until 25 April. – Tim riley (talk) 10:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense. Thanks, Tim. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:William Sterndale Bennett/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ravpapa (talk · contribs) 06:26, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

It was a pleasure reading this excellent article on the man who was one of the architects of modern music education, a pioneer in the field of arts administration, and undoubtedly Britain's leading composer of the early Romantic period. It will be a pleasure granting this article GA status, as my ensuing review will justify. The criticisms that I do have of the article might well be seen as a matter of personal taste, and certainly will not stand in the way of granting this article the status it deserves.

GA Criteria analysis

To receive GA status, the article must meet six criteria:

Well written

The article is certainly well written. The prose is clear and concise. It adheres to the manual of style.

Offhand, I did not notice any mixing of American and British spelling and usage. In general, usage is British ("amongst" rather than the American "among"). Editors who are good at this kind of thing should check it over to make sure there are no Americanisms like "color" lurking in the article.

The last paragraph of the article lead is problematic. The contention that "In recent years appreciation of Bennett's music has been rekindled and a number of his works, including a symphony, his piano concerti and many of his piano compositions, have been recorded" is unsupported in the article. You should add something - perhaps in the "Legacy" section - that supports this statement. Also, referring to things that are going to happen in the future ("In his bicentenary year of 2016 a number of concerts of his music are planned.") is very risky indeed. Aside from the fact that they might not happen, can you promise to be around to change it to past tense when it actually happens? I would suggest just leaving it as "2016 is the bicentenary year of his birth". Nuff said.

Verifiable

Excellent documentation. I think just about everything of importance ever written about the man is cited.

The use of end notes for comments, separate from the reference footnotes, is interesting, but perhaps a little pretentious. I used this trick in the article on Music of Israel to separate sources of recordings from other sources. On the other hand, I included comments with sources in the same section in the article on Grosse Fuge. So I suppose you could go either way. If I were writing the article, I would have gone with a mixed reference-end note section, but that is just a personal preference.

Broad in Coverage

It certainly covers all aspects of Bennett's life and career.

The article does contain occasional orphan factoids. For example, "in 1844 Bennett married Mary Anne Wood (1824–1862), the daughter of Commander James Wood RN." Who is this guy? Without some kind of context, Mary Anne Wood's progeny seems pretty irrelevant. I made a brief effort to figure out who this guy was - he could of been James Athol Wood, a pretty colorful character, but who possibly never married; or James Wood (1783 -1857), who it appears sailed to Pitcairn's Island in the HMS Pandora and married a Tahitian. I would say it is worth finding out - or deleting the guy from the article.

When I read the article a second or third time, I thought I saw other such dangling factoids, but now that I am writing this, I can't find them.

Neutral

Well, I don't really have much to say about this. Is it possible to write a non-neutral article about someone like this?

Stable

This and the previous criterion are really applicable to articles about the Tibetan liberation movement, or Messianic Jews, that are the subject of constant edit-warring. We can all be thankful that we are editing in a subject area of relative peace. Of course, the infobox police have not yet visited the page...

Illustrated

Fine pics.

General criticisms

I have two general criticisms of the article, which are largely a matter of taste:

First, the lead I find to be a bit bland and unfocused. I ask myself: why is this guy important (or maybe he isn't). I think you could add a bit of focus and vigor to the lead by emphasizing Bennett's not insubstantial contributions to British music. Something in the nature of the sentence I wrote to open this review: "the man who was one of the architects of modern music education, a pioneer in the field of arts administration, and considered by many to be Britain's leading composer of the early Romantic period." In particular, there are things Bennett did, that are discussed in the article, which are really important: he saved the RAM from dissolution, and turned it into the premier music school of the empire; he established the profession of music administrator, at a time when the entire music profession in Britain was undergoing a change toward professionalization; he taught a generation of composers who would eventually erase the stigma of Britain being a "land without music".

All these things are mentioned in the lead or in the article, but there is no punch. So the man comes across as being pretty shvakh, as we say in Yiddish - colorless, minor, so what?

Secondly, I think the article could profit from a few paragraphs about the musical and cultural context of early Victorian Britain. Certainly, the article is always referring to this context - for example, there is Squire's backhanded snipe at British audiences: "which an uneducated public admires are absent," and Ehrlich's deprecating remark: "Verdi was in Milan, Wagner in Dresden, Meyerbeer in Paris, Brahms in Vienna, and Liszt in Weimar. London had the richest of audiences, and was offered Sterndale Bennett." But there is no clear statement of the context - the inherent inferiority complex of the British people of the period that they were a "land without music", that all their high culture had to be imported. This cultural context has, I believe, a profound importance for the way Bennett was perceived, the musical and organizational challenges that Bennett faced, and the way he dealt with them. So I would welcome a paragraph about that.

Third, as the article moves past Bennett's youth, I lose a sense of the man's personality. With all the biographical details, I don't have a feeling for what he was like. Was he, as he was as a boy, diffident and modest (his music suggests to me that he was)? Did he have a sense of humor (I think so)? Was he peevish and argumentative (as his feud with Costa suggests), or wimpy and pusillanimous (as his critics suggested)? Perhaps a few more quotes from Bennett himself would sharpen the picture we get of Bennett the man.

And, finally

By the power vested in me by absolutely no one, I hereby grant this article GA status.

--Ravpapa (talk) 10:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

A response

I am very grateful for your very constructive review, and of course for your GA award. There is a lot to think about in your comments, and I will bear them strongly in mind when, in a while, I will seek to upgrade the article further to FA for WSB's bicentenary in April. With thanks, --Smerus (talk) 11:00, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

It's a pity that an otherwise comprehensive and useful review is marred by the snide and snobbish comment, "Of course, the infobox police have not yet visited the page..." This kind of remark does nothing but mar the collegial environment that this article has enjoyed so far. In fact I have previously mentioned that the article would benefit from an infobox, if only because the lead did not mention his place of death or burial - and surely a burial in Westminster Abbey was significant recognition of his stature at the time? My suggestion of an infobox was not taken up - and I did not object to that - but the lead was expanded to include those missing facts that I look for when I assess whether an article would benefit from an infobox. Now that's how collaborative editing should take place, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see constructive efforts smeared by ignorant commentary. --RexxS (talk) 20:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I guess Ravpapa hadn't looked at the peer review; but I confirm that this issue was properly and amicably discussed and resolved on a consensus basis there, and I am confident that consensus approach will continue.

As regards some of Ravpapa's general criticisms: I agree the lead needs more 'punch'. There is some restructuring and additional info needed in the main article (e.g. as regards WSB's personality) which can be reflected in a more developed lead and can answer some of Ravpapa's other comments. I'm not sure how much one can go on about the state of English music in the period without overflowing the boundaries of the article - this could need a separate article in itself (? a spin-off from, or a major rewrite in Classical music of the United Kingdom, which is a pretty sparse affair). The notes and citations I prefer to keep separate, as in other GA and FA articles I have worked on.--Smerus (talk) 12:04, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

--Smerus (talk) 11:10, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, there's a piece of irresponsible editing for you! Writing a GA review without reading the peer review first! I should be fired. But since nobody hired me in the first place, I guess my sinecure is safe.

To the point at hand, I have now read it, and was pleased to see that the infobox issue was resolved so amicably. I have seen other articles where the arguments over infobox-no infobox were so rancorous that the talk page was smeared thick with wikiblood. So I am glad it was dispatched here with such grace, and apologize if editors took umbrage. --Ravpapa (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it was churlish of me to pick on one comment - I'm obviously getting too touchy about the subject - and I owe you an apology for that. I should instead have made more of thanking you for your work in producing the GA review. So thank you, sincerely. It seems to me that a peer review ought to be just as much part of the record of discussions on improving an article as anything that's on the talk page, but it's far too easy to miss the small link at the top of the page. Perhaps we ought to think about transcluding peer reviews here, just as we do GA reviews? --RexxS (talk) 21:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Transclusion of peer reviews seems a good idea - is there some way to raise this as a general issue?--Smerus (talk) 11:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

FA nom

@Tim riley, RexxS, Brianboulton, and Ravpapa: (and of course anyone else who is interested) - I've now ventured to put this up for FA review with the hope of getting it on the front page on WSB's bicentenary birthday. Many thanks for your help and comments which I have tried to deal with - I've also had some useful input from WSB's ggggson Barry. I have not alas (yet) been able to deal with Ravpapa's point about WSB's personality - he seems in his published letters relatively unrevealing (in a typical Victorian way) about his own feelings.....--Smerus (talk) 12:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Recordings

I have added a recording of a song by Bennett. I have also tried to find other performers of Bennett's works on YouTube who are willing to change the licenses to CC3.0 so we can include them in the article - so far without luck.

I will also try to make a recording of his piano trio in the next few weeks.

Regards,

--Ravpapa (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

!תודה רבה--Smerus (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Lead

I would like to suggest a lead to this article which focuses more on Bennett's accomplishments than on his biography. Here is what I suggest:

William Sterndale Bennett (13 April 1816 – 1 February 1875) was an English composer, pianist, conductor and music educator. Protégé of Felix Mendelssohn and friend of Robert Schumann, he is considered Britain's leading composer of the early romantic period, a time when there was a dearth of musical creativity in Britain. As an educator, he taught a generation of composers who were the first generation of a new, characteristically British school of music. As an administrator, he founded and led numerous musical institutions in Britain, and rescued the faltering Royal Academy of Music from bankruptcy, building it into the leading music conservatory of Britain.

A child prodigy, Bennett was enrolled in the Royal Academy of Music at the age of 10. At 16, he performed his first piano concerto with orchestra. At 20, he had already built a reputation as a concert pianist.

A prolific composer early in his career, Bennett wrote six piano concertos, two symphonies, overtures, choral works, and a wealth of piano pieces. But as his teaching and administrative work grew, he found less and less time for composition. His style was conservative and restrained; Bennett's student Charles Villiers Stanford said his music "reflected the quite atmosphere of the English countryside," making him, possibly, the first composer to seek a specifically British idiom in his music. On the other hand, as musical romanticism advanced, Bennett remained steadfastly conservative in his compositions, leading contemporary critics to view his music as stodgy and out of step.

Bennett numbered among his students composers who were to be the founders of a distinctively British school of composition: Arthur Sullivan, Hubert Parry, Tobias Mathay, and others. He taught at the Royal Academy of Music, where he was also appointed principal, at Queen's College, London, and the University of Cambridge. He directed the Philharmonic Society, was a founder of the Bach Society in London. He took over principalship of the Royal Academy of Music in 1866, when the institution was on the brink of closure. An assertive administrator, Bennett lobbied Parliament to resume a cancelled annuity, and doubled the size of the student body during his tenure.

He was knighted in 1871. He died in London in 1875 and was buried in Westminster Abbey.

If this lead finds favor with the editors, I will also add an introductory paragraph to the section on Music, discussing the musical environment of Britain at the time, and the "Englishness" of Bennett's compositional style. I will also add a paragraph about his personality in the "Family" section. --Ravpapa (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I like a number of things about this approach but I would make the following points:

• The lead should typically be no more than four paragraphs.( see WP:LEADLENGTH)
• The last para should imo be a sort of summary and should ideally say something about Bennett today (that he has been gradually revived and recorded, that there are some events for his bicentenary)
• You could get round this by merging paras 2 and 3 in your version, and paras 4 and 5, leaving room for a summary para 4.
• I would avoid phrases like 'stodgy and out of step' in the article, let alone the lead. (Anyway you've already called him 'conservative and restrained', and repetition especially in the lead is a no-no).

I think the article already gives examples (directly and indirectly) of the musical environment of England in WSB's time - perhaps it would not be advisable to load this too much in what is essentially a biographical article - the topic perhaps belongs to the (presently dismally poor) article Music of the United Kingdom. I will be interested to see how you tackle the "Englishness" of his style - I thought of attempting this but couldn't see a way into it. As you know the article is currently up for FA so it would be good to avoid anything that can't be clearly sourced and referenced. NB: I wouldn't say that the RAM was 'the leading', but 'a leading' - as there is the Royal College of Music, as well.....The phrase 'making him, possibly, the first composer to seek a specifically British idiom in his music' is imo highly suspect - reeks a bit of WP:OR. After all, there are Byrd, Tallis and Purcell....and in the early romantic period Pinto...... .Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the Englishness of Bennett's music, I was planning on quoting from Stanford's article: "He was affected, it is true, by his intercourse with Germany and his close friendships with Germans, but he maintained his British characteristics throughout his life. In a former article which I contributed to this Review, I said: "The English take a kind of pride in concealing their feelings and emotions, and this is reflected in their folk-song. The Thames has no rapids and no falls; it winds along under its woods in a gentle stream, never dry and never halting; it is the type of the spirit of English folkmusic. .... England is as remote from Keltic fire and agony, as the Thames is from the Spey." Bennett was a typical specimen of this English characteristic. He was a poet, but of the school of Wordsworth rather than of Byron and Shelley." And on Cobbett: "There dwellsin Benntt's music a kind of Wordworthian gentleness, which as stanfor\d wrote 'refleted the quite atmosphere of the English countryside'". Also, I would point to the dominance of English themes and English poetry in his oevre.

As for musical environment, the article refers all the time to this, but as it is never stated explicitly, I think most readers will miss it. I was thinking of only a shortish paragraph, and maybe a quote from Mendelssohn's letter, to tie it all together: "... since [your compositions] took root in the minds of the true amateurs, my countrymen became aware that music is the same in England as in Germany, as everywhere; and so by your successes here you destroyed that prejudice which nobody could ever have destroyed but a true genius."

As for the lead in general, the question is whether you think this approach is an improvement on the current lead. I like it better, but if we don't all agree, there's no point in changing it just because of me. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The Stanford quote is excellent, I have cut it down a little and placed it in the article, many thanks. NB the Mendelssohn quote is in the article already, under 'Reception' which I think makes the point you suggest. Best,--Smerus (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Bicentenary

"In his bicentenary year of 2016, several concerts of his music have been planned." - I would guess that very soon that should include "performed" in some way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)