Talk:Prostitution in Germany

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A fact from Prostitution in Germany appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 1 March 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that because of an effort to curb the spread of STDs, prostitution in Germany has been legal since the 1920s?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/March.

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Trafficking

I would contend that, with the exception of Hamburg and Berlin, the trafficking in women as described in the Trafficking section is misrepresented. Only in the appartment scene is it even possible for foreign women to work without accurate and complete papers. That means that they need to be in possesion of their passports.

Most of the trafficking that is happening is at the knowledge of the women that they will be working in prostitution and the payment is made by them for this service. It used to be common for the traffickers to arrange a marriage to a German to get legal status. With the admission of many new countries into the EU this is outdated. The fee the "husband" would receive was often in the 10,000 - 20,000 DM range. these girls would often give their legal papers to another girl fromt heir home country to work a legitmate job under, while they were working as prostitutes.

Friedman

> In 2003, Michel Friedman, popular TV talk show host ... he resigned his posts. > Also in 2003, well-known artist and art professor Jörg Immendorff ... his terminal illness.

it is misleading to mention this two cases of cocaine abuse in connection with the (il)legality of prosituition. While this occurances where connected with illegal prostituition, both men have had nothing to do with this aspect. OTOH both cases are highly relevant about the moral situation of prostitutes and their customers in Germany (and illegal drugs too).

Well, these examples are not in the section discussing the (il)legality of prostitution in Germany, so I would argue that they belong where they are. I'll clarify that the men were only punished for the drug. AxelBoldt 19:59, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lack of traineeships

Does anyone know the background to this story about the lack of traineeships in German brothels in the English-language media? Was the reason the exemption wasn't granted because the government wants to put pressure on brothels? --Robert Merkel 13:05, 3 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the main reason is bureaucratical: the ministry didn't want to have to precisely define the exempt businesses, and they were probably afraid that other businesses would ask for exemptions as well. In any case, so far the law is just a draft and hasn't been voted on. AxelBoldt 12:40, 12 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Removal

I removed two sentences:

Generally the tighter the local regulations, the more power have the pimps and the more abusive is the whole business -- because the restrictions increase the competition between the women so that those without pimps will be driven away by the pimps of the others.

This claim is not supported by the cited literature published by the German government. Pimp pressure is low in Munich and high in Hamburg. In Berlin, pimp pressure on foreign women is high but on German women is low.

(again increasing pimp power, since they often intimidate the unwilling customer into paying).

Pimps do generally not participate directly in the prostitute-customer relationship; they just induce or force the woman to work and to hand over the money afterwards. AxelBoldt 12:40, 12 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed the first statement again. AxelBoldt 18:48, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

East vs West

This article sort of skims over the period of 1945-1990. I think more detail should be added, especially with regards to the differences between East and West Germany's attitudes towards prostitution.

Soccer World Cup 2006 & Prostitution

The German government has informed the world that tens of thousands of prostitutes will be crowding around busy sporting stadiums, where the soccer world cup games will be held. (Most likely in Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt.) The number of prostitutes is estimated at tens of thousands! " The above edit was made to the article -- it doesn't fit into the article in its current form, and i don't know enough to the article to integrate it. what do you guys think? Toss it? TastemyHouse 05:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, toss it; the German government hasn't done anything like that. A good report is here: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/11/18/world_cup/ . Basically:

There were plans in Dortmund to erect stalls for prostitution in anticipation of the soccer world cup, but they have since been abandoned.
A women's organization has started a campaign to inform world cup visitors about trafficking and forced prostitution.
A big new brothel opened a couple of months ago in Berlin; whether that's related to the soccer world cup is anybody's guess.

AxelBoldt 15:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Trafficking section

"The trafficking in women from Eastern Europe is organized by gangs from that same region."

--> This theory is not supported by yearly police reports (BKA - Lagebericht Menschenhandel)

The image of 'the perpetrator' as foreigner in disourses on trafficking has been analysed as racist by severall authors and should not be reproduced like that. Maybe the information could be replaced by something more differentiated?

I agree; we can simply state that 60% of the accused were foreigners, and another 8% were foreign-born Germans. AxelBoldt 22:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Women are often unwilling to testify against their oppressors"

--> they are also in most cases unable to act as witnesses as they do not have the needed information

The following was copied from user talk:AxelBoldt:

AxelBoldt,

I don't understand your rationale for removing my numerous additions to what goes on in FKK clubs. I've been to many FKK clubs there and what I wrote is from personal experience. What I said about "unlimited foreplay" is true. In fact, I am friends with a guy who has a company leading tours from the U.S. to FKK clubs six or seven times a year, and this is what all the customers will tell you. I notice you also deleted the information I gave about the men being given towels to wear, the fact that some of the girls are as beautiful as in Playboy, the fact that session fee doesn't run until you take the girl to the room, etc. What are the reasons for these other deletions?

--Liem

Hello,

towel/robe situation is mentioned
"Playboy quality" language is not neutral and smells like advertising
unlimited foreplay/session starts at the room: that information is misleading at best; see this FAQ which emphasizes repeatedly that one should not waste a woman's time on the couch and one can be charged for this in extreme cases. Publically advertising "unlimited foreplay" here will only get people into trouble.

Cheers, AxelBoldt 13:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Urban myth of cut benefits

That was brit tabloids. http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

The daily telegraph is not a tabloid 130.95.128.51

Image:0405.Annabell 002.jpg

this image Image:0405.Annabell 002.jpg in the prostitution article, is labeled "A German artist's self-portrait as a prostitute." in this article, the image is labeled "A prostitute in Germany, 1999". badmachine (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Organized crime

This article could be improved by adding a section that discusses the connection between German prostitution and organized crime. Please see [1]. Organized crime has become a huge problem in Amsterdam as well for the same reasons. NancyHeise ^talk 03:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should not believe this. I read this text quickly, found:

a lot of unproven, aggressive, prejudicing and even racist statements there. Based on a
- "gigantic, highly organized criminal trade linked to the exploitation of women", which is unproven and irreal
- There is no slavery or "white slave trade", especially not in Germany, except probably some incidents at wartimes in Bosnien and Kosovo and a short time after that. Just mentioning it does not prove its reality.
Although there is a possibility that prostitutes have more than average personal problems, and some of them like drug addiction will make vulnerable to criminality, this is not caused by prostitution. And there is no believable statistics about that.
At least, Wikipedia articles are not the place for discussions, but knowledge.

There is no prove, and i can see no special relation of prostitution to organized crime. Especially not in such a free, tolerant society and state of laws like Germany. Other professions, like building companies, are probably more related to this.

The main thing i personally worry about is that such an unreal, unscientific, racist text could be believed by americans. Imho Jimbo had founded Wikipedia to aid in that. Wispanow (talk) 11:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wispanow, I am not into prostitution but I came across this page when I looked at your user contributions to see what pages you were into since you were so into the camera stuff. The link between organized crime and prostitution in Germany (and everywhere else) is a well known fact. Here's a Routledge book that discusses the German prostitution/organized crime/sex slavery situtation see page 83 [2]. Where I live, there are concerted efforts to rescue underage girls from sex slavery see [3]. I think this article could be improved by discussing the organized crime assertions (true or not) that are being made by some scholars as well as the efforts to rescue young girls from what some believe to be modern sex slavery. There are groups of Catholics in Germany and others who are devoted to helping these girls out of their situations. Amsterdam has changed its laws recently in an effort to deal with the plethora of organized crime linked prostitution. See [4]. I am just trying to help what seems to me to be serious omissions in this article. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 18:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AFD for crime lord Necati Arabaci

Necati Arabaci crime lord in germany is under AFD Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Necati_Arabaci. Kasaalan (talk) 11:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prostitution in Europe template

The template in the bottom of the article is not correrct. For example Prostitution in the Netherlands. I am not a established user, so I can not edit. Fyfaenflate (talk) 14:07, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now it is repaired :) Sleitfelt (talk) 14:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Prostitutes in the street of Reeperbahn.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Prostitution in Europe template, Again.

The template in the bottom of the article is not correrct. For example "Prostitution in the Netherlands" do not work. I am not a established user, so I can not edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.34.82 (talk) 10:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone get this fixed? 88.91.90.34 (talk) 11:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have not had time to examine this, but I suspect there is no simple solution. The article includes:

{{Europe in topic|Prostitution in}}

which uses {{Europe topic}} ({{Europe in topic}} redirects to that).

The problem is that the template generates a link to Prostitution in Netherlands whereas the article is actually Prostitution in the Netherlands.

The template even fails on Netherlands which includes {{Europe topic|Climate of}} which gives the "Climate of Europe" navbox at the bottom, with a red link for "Netherlands" instead of the correct link Climate of the Netherlands (however, that link is a redirect to Netherlands article).

A klunky workaround would be to generate a bunch of redirects so, for example, "Prostitution in Netherlands" redirects to the correct article. It probably affects countries other than this.

This issue should be raised at Template talk:Europe topic. If I had time, I would try to think some more about the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 01:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

East German Stasi and forced prostitution

In several TV documentaries on the channel Phoenix women were interviewed who had been forced into prostitution by the East German Secret Service Stasi. Woemn who had unsuccessfully attempted to escape the Communist paradise were given the choice of several years inprison or, when they were young and pretty, to work as baits for the Stasi to gain information from visiting business manaagers or politicians for blackmail purposes. Apartments were bugged and the couples filmed in intimate situations. Several of the women committed suicide. Officially prostitution was illegal in the DDR, but there was an escort service for leading party members. Ontologix (talk) 19:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Woemn who had unsuccessfully attempted to escape the Communist paradise were given the choice of several years inprison or, when they were young and pretty, to work as baits for the Stasi" "Several of the women committed suicide." - i am sorry, but the german article "Prostitution in der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik" didn´t say that. It still might possible, but whats your exact source? The article rather says that it was free-willed and that the woman were seduced by money. --91.4.177.48 (talk) 19:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Partytreffs or Pauschalclubs

The article reads that sex is always in public in this brothels, but this is not generally true. It´s only in some of these clubs. In some the customer can also decide if he want´s that or not. You can read that on several pages of these clubs. 79.227.43.233 (talk) 22:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Should Wikipedia really give credence to this guy?

German-American journalist and men's rights activist Jerry Hoss likens the push for prostitution prohibition to a demand for a "final solution of the prostitution problem by Feminazis."

Is it really worth mentioning the ridiculous opinions of an MRA on Wikipedia, and that right aside Alice Schwarzer's position? Hell, his ideas are given a longer explanation than those of Schwarzer. It's like you write down the opinions of, say, Noam Chomsky on some political topic, and in the next sentence you note that some random blogger on the Internet disagrees with him, quote him calling Chomsky a commie, and put down some long explanation of his opinions. I can barely figure out who this Jerry Hoss is by Googling his name. I'll note though that I found a German comment on some blog by a certain "Jerry Hoss PhD" who defends p*dophiles and likens their persecution to witch hunts. (I censored that word because Wikipedia's automated filter seems to catch it.) 2A02:908:C30:3540:221:CCFF:FE66:68F0 (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is it really worth mentioning the ridiculous opinions of an MRA on Wikipedia, and that right aside Alice Schwarzer's position?" Well.. yes. Because Alice Schwarzer has even more ridiculous opinions... except for some radical feminists, public opinion about her are not good in Germany. At least not after her tax scandal. She hates males. So why not also cite a MRA?

"Hell, his ideas are given a longer explanation than those of Schwarzer." Well... his ideas are more logically and better than her´s...

"I'll note though that I found a German comment on some blog by a certain "Jerry Hoss PhD" who defends p*dophiles and likens their persecution to witch hunts." I want to see a link to this blog. Also: blogs are no sources for work in Wikipedia.--91.4.177.48 (talk) 19:07, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Is prostitution really still legal in Germany?

As a German who really worships prostitutes, I must confess that the new mandatory use of condoms sickens me. Sex with condom is not real sex, in my eyes, so I believe, it should be mentioned in the very beginning of the article, that prostitution without condom hast turned illegal since July 2017, and customers should be warned to ask for it. I even believe, criminal organizations might turn it a business blackmailing customers who ask for sex without condom. --92.216.225.237 (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mandatory condom use was added to the end of the 'Post 2002' section. I don't see condom use makes prostitution any less legal than say registration of prostitutes, prostitutes must be at least 18 years old or any other restriction. Nor do I see a need to make a point of it in the lead section. I'll refrain from commenting on the remainder of your post --John B123 (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It should be mentioned that sex without condom wasn´t widespread before, forbidden a long time before 2017 in Bavaria - and all that mandatory condom use wasn´t (and isn´t up to date) effective or controllable. Widespread was only blowjob without condom, but thats not very dangerous for contracting STIs. Prostitute organzations have gone to the highest court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) against the new law, especially also against condom use, but also against registering prostitutes (a practice formerly known from the Imperial Time, the Third Reich and the GDR). The decision of the court is expected at the end of this year (2018) or next year (2019).--91.4.177.48 (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info --John B123 (talk) 19:39, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Forms of female prostitution

As German i want to add a few points to this:

- "Straßenstrich": Prostitutes on the streets are sometimes called "Bordsteinschwalbe", a harmless and funny sounding word used instead of "Prostituierte" or the rather harsh "Hure". Public opinion has it that this is the lowest form of prostitution, with the most danger for drug abuse, pimps and violence. This form also leads to most public outrage, especially near schools or in living quarters. Cities sometimes combat is by restricted zones ("Sperrbezirk") - but this works only if permanently controlled by the police.

- Eros centers (Bordell, Laufhaus): The worth "Bordell" simply means "brothel" and isn´t specifically used for "Laufhaus" or "Eroscenter". "Bordell" is the term used for almost all indoor-prostitution (perhaps the exception if a prostitute operates alone from her own appartment or the case of prostitution in hotels)

- Apartment prostitution (Wohnungspuffs): "Wohnungspuffs" refers to a number of that, as single one would be "Wohnungspuff". Even if the word "Wohnungspuffs" is not wrong an every German would understand what you mean, the more correct and widely used term is "Wohnungsbordell" (or for a number of that: "Wohnungsbordelle").

- Massage parlors: Would be "Massagesalon" in german. Rather rare form. But with the new law ("Prostitutionsschutzgesetz", since 2017/2018) a controversity has risen of these form is also a form of prostitution. Many erotic masseurs don´t want to be stigmatized as prostitutes.

- Partytreffs and Pauschalclubs: "Pauschalclubs" became illegal by the law of 2017, but they still exist and trick themself around that law by making the offer no longer unlimited ("pauschal") but instead limitid to such a high number (8-11 times) that no customer could reach that limit in a days opening (typically from 14-24:00, so 10 hours) and with the limited number of prostitutes (typically 8). The ban of these clubs should be mentioned also in "Politics", because at the moment the article still states that the are legit.--91.4.177.48 (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

photos in the article

one of the photos (the one of the client on the bed) probably should be taken down. it looks like the photo was taken without his consent or from a hidden camera. Glx272727 (talk) 23:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Male prostitution

While I don't doubt that the vast majority of prostitutes in Germany are female in every sense of the word, surely the tiny mention here of male and transgender prostitution is far below being in proportion to the extent to which male and transgender prostitution exists. - Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Human trafficking stats

According to several studies, 90% of sex workers in Germany are victims of human trafficking.

The article used for that claim doesn't source this and I can't find similar claims and especially no studies. Merloss1000 (talk) 07:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]