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Portugal

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self-nomination. Very informative and all what's important about the country in one single article. Maybe it needs improvement in the "engrish". Then what you should when you find a problem is rewriting it, rather than objecting. And that's the main reason why this article is here, to get better. -Pedro 22:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - 1st - The flag is not a standard flag, I know this may not be very important, but the red part is bigger than it should be, I think the one in the Portuguese Presidential website is a good one to replace the present flag. 2nd - The history section misses some important issues, like the medieval period between the foundation and the discoveries, I think the early Portuguese priority in the naval expansion (a unique fact in Europe) should be explained. The 20th century part should be better explained. 3rd - I think that the question about Olivença should not be handled with such importance, only a very few Portuguese care about Olivença, whether that is right or not, I think that the question is being given too much importance, someone who doesn't know would think that Portugal has a big conflict with Spain, if yes, I'd like to see the references, because, as a Portuguese, I don't know that. I think the page is very good, but I'd like to see it better organized. Afonso Silva
    • 1st Is that free? 2nd the History section is already too big. More information is for History of Portugal. Yes, it happened a lot of this between Independence and exploration (good point in here!). But the problem is space. What you suggest? Battle of Aljubarrota? If so it should be a small paragraph. The 20th century has already 2 paragraphs! 3rd I dont think so, it has only one comment, and a link to the official map of Portugal. Afonso for your talks (20th century thing; Zeca Afonso, etc), I see you're a communist, has one you should see what your party has said about Olivença and that revels a little POVish opinion on the 20th century. Links to that problem or references, hmmm... In what extenct? the triety or something from the Foreign minister, or the activists?-Pedro 19:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object:
  • The intro gives an intro to Portugal's location, system of government, and native name in the first para, and a one-paragraph summary of the history in the next. This is good, but the second para is abruptly cut off at the Portuguese Empire.
  • The history section gives a single event for 1143, 1250, and 1415. What happened in between?
  • I didn't see a mention of the Portuguese Inquisition.
  • Geography section is too short.
  • Economy section too short.
  • Eliminate the stupid EU and Europe templates.
  • No "law and crime" section? No mention of Portugal's conterversial stance on abortion or drugs?
  • No foreign relations section? The only mention of foreign policy is a very brief discussion of Luso-Spanish relations. Insufficient.
  • Three lines for Portuguese cuisine is too short; I expect at least four paragraphs.
  • " Portuguese literature is synonymous with poetry. As a matter of fact, Portugal is known as 'a country of poets.' Portuguese poetry has a larger influence in the country's literature than prose." What's that all about? That seems like three unsourced sentences that are redundant anyway. Eliminate or modify them.
  • There are exactly zero mentions of the military.
  • Did Portugal contribute anything to the International Space Station?
  • No education section.
  • No communications section.
  • No transportation section.
  • No environment section
  • No human rights section.
  • No science and technology section.
  • No mention of international rankings (World Press Freedom, Human Development Index, etc.)
  • Comment - 1st - of course it is free, it is a national flag! 2nd - all right, we all know that you want to make a page about Portugal showing what it has of unique, so, why do we have not a single reference to the Portuguese priority in the naval expansion, that was unique, history proves it, and I'm not talking about Aljubarrota, I'm mainly talking about the social-class relations that lead to the need of expansion. 3rd - first, I don't recall in any way any word from the PCP about Olivença, anyway, I don't make statements about that, I only think that the question is overlooked in many portugal-about issues... we're talking about the borders not being recognized and so... where are the official documents saying that? that's a State issue, it should be documented. About the 20th century, it has two paragraphs pointing the former Portuguese territories and when we lost it. I think that that's not good history, there's a lot more to tell... 1st world war, the rise of the Fascist regime, the years of Fascism (not only the non-democratic euphemism), the importance of the revolution in the euro-american wave of democratization (never heard of 3rd republic). 4th - I don't agree with the poetry thing, is Saramago a poet? Is Lobo Antunes a poet? Eça de Queirós? Aquilino Ribeiro? Vergílio Ferreira? I agree that the poetry has a major importance, but I don't agree that it overides the prose. 5th - I think the telmplates in the end are fine. Afonso Silva 05:50, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Neutrality and Afonso (really lots of thanks TO BOTH!), now if you know something you can contribute. :P The too many wiki links objection by Cctoide is done. It was also a good objection. 3rdAbout Olivenza I try to put a link to the triety and to the foreign relations min.. Afonso, has you said about me on revolutionary music. If you dont know about Olivenza that's your problem, you should get informed (the PCP was one of the most agressive parties in this issue in the parliament), the link to the official map is a link to the Portuguese Geographical Institute of the army, is not any map. And the map is widely famous on the net. I know that because everyone downloads it in portuguese emule netw.1st can you get it? the previous map before this one, was horrible, this one is not that bad. but get it please. 2nd ok. I'm going to investigate on that. About the Portuguese history, there's so much to tell! About the WW1, is that really important to Portugal? but you're right about the 20th century. Portugal was much more than colonies :\ 4th well.... I dont agree with you on that. In fact, that was a translation from the Portuguese wiki, and I agree with the original author. But it can be fixed to respect the prose. 5th in this I agree with neutrality. So 1/2 agree 1/2 disagree. The Europe template is really terrible. Mentions to Asia, this and that is in Asia, that is partly in Asia, this is culturally European, blah blah. That's not important to Portugal, it is very far from Asia. I think it should go! And we should remove the flags from the EU template.--Pedro 11:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Olivença - I know that Portugal considers Olivença Portuguese territory de facto, but there are not strong diplomatic actions to take it back. I think it can be mentioned that way. I know the map, I have it, perhaps I've never noticed the border. Flag - I really think it should be replaced, with one of these: [1]. History - I think WW1 is important, Portugal participated, it was a major fact in the fall of the 1st republic. Portugal lost 8000 men in the Battle of the Lys, that's relevant, the WW1 killed more Portuguese than the colonial war. I think the page is good and I'd like to see it in the main page, I'll try to help in the history section. Afonso Silva 13:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've changed the flag, I took it from the presidential website, the former one was really incorrect, the relation between red and green, the colors, the shield was not bordered with white. Anyway, the new one is the real Portuguese flag. Afonso Silva 18:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

fullfilled more objections:

  • Geography section now with lots of info
  • added environment sub-section. (this gave me a lot of work :S)
  • Economy section now is big.
  • added transportation sub-section.
  • removed the contested sentences in the lead, and in the culture section (literature)
  • Now, The reader does not think that Portugal and Spain are in some kind of war because of Olivenza.

remaining problems:

  • EU and Europe templates
  • Law and Crime, Abortion, drugs (drugs??????!!!!because you think it is still a crime or because it is despenalized?)
  • international relations
  • Portuguese cuisine
  • education section.
  • military
  • No human rights section.
  • communications (it has, but it is insufient)
  • No science and technology section.
  • No mention of international rankings (it does...)
  • inline sites on Olivenza issue.
  • History (inquisition and something between the reconquista and the discoveries, plus something else in the 20th century)

I hope I dont keep the only one editing. :| -Pedro 21:18, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Whoa - this article is starting to become huge. There are separate history of, economy of, people of, and demographics of articles that are now about as large or smaller than the sections in this article. Those main articles are the place to expand on these topics not in this article. This article needs to quickly survey all the major points and lead the interested reader into other subtopics if he or she wishes to have more detail on those subtopics. See Wikipedia:Summary style. --mav 01:16, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • ok, I'm just doing what they are arguing. Besides the new additions gave me a lot of work investigating and translating names! I'm just trying to put this one has feature article this one, not the rest. So has it is becoming to be huge, I'll just add paragraphs for the rest of the demands. Human rights go to politics? How about education, science and technology? go to Economy?? I'll see what I can reduce, putting most in those articles. -Pedro 10:37, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some of Neutrality's objections only need a sentence or two if they have a link. I think it's okay to have information missing from the main article as long as it's easy to find it in the sub-articles like history of Portugal or politics of Portugal. Good luck with this. I'm really impressed that you can do something this complex in a foreign language. Dave (talk) 14:39, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Support - Many of the objections have been corrected. 1st the long 2000 years history section is now very good (20th century, 1383-1385) (of course there are things missing, but otherwise the article would be even bigger). 2nd Military section is now independent and has some info. 3rd The introduction was reformulated, it has now another paragraph, it's mine, I hope someone can make better. 4th About cuisine, I don't think it needs much more (4 paragraphs?!), South Africa is a featured article and has much little about it. In overal, the article is very good. Afonso Silva 20:32, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks dave!!! My problem is that I dont read what I write, and I don't use a spell checker. LOL. About the cuisine: it would be good for tourists to know the main typical dishes... bacalhau à brás, bacalhau à Gomes de Sá, Feijoada, etc... 4 is too much, but a big paragraph would be useful... the problem is that Portuguese cuisine varies a lot from place to place, but there are common and more popular dishes. We can also talk about Portuguese fast food.. etc....--Pedro 23:15, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Portuguese cuisine info was added. More can be found in the proper article. That existed before, althoug it is a very confuse article. -Pedro 00:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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