Talk:Raymond Burr

Hedda Hopper

Hedda Hopper was actor William Hopper's (Paul Drake in the "Perry Mason" series) mother. She was a well known tabloid columnist who was sometimes considered malicious or cruel in who or what she wrote about and/or exposed. She was also known to sometimes adorn flamboyant hats. (ViceFan (talk) 07:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC))

Christian Nyby

Resolved

 – There are at least two people named Christian Nyby and the one linked was apparently alive at the time. Banjeboi 16:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Christian Nyby was mentioned in this article as attending a memorial service for Raymond Burr on 10/1/1993. According to other sources, including Wikipedia, Nyby died on 9/17/1993, two weeks prior to the Burr Memorial Service in Pasadena. Unless he was represented in absentia, I doubt he was present :) 24.99.137.135 00:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

War record

It appears that much of Burr's war record was fabricated, especially the part about him being injured in Okinawa. I will review this and make the appropriate changes shortly.THD3 (talk) 23:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• No, it is not fabricated. The name of Raymond Burr appears on the list of Purple Heart. Gloubik (talk) 16:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I watched a program on the Biography Channel. They covered this controversy, and claimed that the US Navy appear to have no record of his service and wounding as claimed.85.158.137.195 (talk) 08:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

[Resolved] Ref added. Banjeboi 16:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Not so resolved. Hiding in Plain Sight makes a strong case that his entire Navy record, including the injury, was fabricated. The National Personnel Records Center has no record of a Raymond Burr serving in any branch of the U.S. military during this period, which is quite odd given that he supposedly was discharged as a lieutenant commander. I've rewritten the text in the article in order to to convey the doubts about this. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Really gay?

Below my statement here is a lot of conjecture and rumors concerning this aspect. But, I have to ask...is this question really that important or that big of a deal? Raymond Burr denied being homosexual during his life, and kept his personal life private. There are tons of rumors of him being gay, but they are just that...RUMORS! Maybe he was homosexual...or maybe he just never wanted marriage or to have a relationship with a woman and/or women--and instead put his full attention to his work. There is some possible evidence that Burr had a gay relationship with a man named Robert Benevides...there is also some possible evidence that he had an affair with actress Natalie Wood, at one point. Burr was also married to at least one woman (if not 2) for a few years, before divorce. Most likely he was probably bi-sexual...but we could go on and on with rumor and innuendos forever. I hate and have no use for rumors and innuendos...they end up "dirtying" the waters in any situation.

The fact remains that Raymond Burr is no longer living and can no longer state or prove one way or the other. Since he denied being gay during life and kept his life off the screen private...perhaps we all should continue to honor that and let it all "be". At this point does it really matter? This is my opinion, but I think most can agree that Burr was an amazing actor and could captivate you with whatever role he was playing. He also was a great humanitarian and lover of people and children. Many friends and co-workers have stated that he was one of the nicest actors ever. In 1966, when "Perry Mason" went off the air, Raymond Burr was not only the highest paid actor on TV, he was considered one of the nicest and most popular too. I think we should focus on these aspects of Burr's life and stop all the tabloid/smear/rumor type "garbage" about what his supposed sexual orientation and/or private life was like. Despite what is said below here, I don't think we can ever "resolve" this question--and don't really need to. (ViceFan (talk) 09:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC))

Resolved

 – The entire article does need better sourcing ... but yes, he really was gay and references have been added to article. Banjeboi 16:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it wrong to paint a fellow as 'gay' after death, who refused to paint himself as homosexual in life. "No romantic relationship has ever been proved between Burr and Natalie Wood." And where is the 'proof' of his romantic relationship with Robert Benevides. "However, these details were fabricated in an attempt to hide the fact that Burr was gay." The purported fabrication of personal loss seems quite out of character. The writer of this article is not offended by the discovery of such deception? Then the writer has no respect for truth. The validity of the entire article must come into question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.167.235.11 (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC) User:216.167.235.11

In 1950's Hollywood, homosexuality was very much frowned upon. Claiming to be a widower would be a relatively harmless way of asserting heterosexuality, while not having to carry on a pretense of dating, etc. It is generally acknowledged that he was gay, and it is highly unlikely that everyone who knew him (including his good friend and co-star, Barbara Hale) would lie about him after his death. Raider Duck 06:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember seeing an episode of Biography, a TV program produced by the A&E Network in the US, that treated his homosexuality as a fact. That seems to indicate that it's fairly well-accepted as factual. Accounting4Taste 00:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It is the kind of discussion which I find without interest. What counts, it is what this man did, his private life looked at only him. Those which are baited on this question cannot recognize what is important. Gloubik 21:30, 11 October 2007

Much of the article is poorly written, like a press release: I have tried to clean up the English. Rothorpe 23:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Natalie Wood had told a friend that her relationship with Burr had become physical. Finstad's bio of Natalie Wood states this with references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.95.147.164 (talk) 06:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Did Burr ever make a statement saying that he was homosexual? Did the men who were supposed to be in a homosexual relationship with him ever make public statements? If not, then the allegation in the article is just another example of libel about homosexuality that is so frequently seen in Wikipedia articles. Accounting4Taste's reference to a TV show that "seems" factual is an indication of how easily people are influenced. By the way, "homophobia" means "fear of the same."Lestrade (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Burr's homosexuality has been well documented in numerous sources. His former partner, Robert Benevides, to whom Burr left his entire estate, has also spoken of their relationship. Just because the subject makes you uncomfortable, Lestrade, doesn't justify removing it from the article. Wikipedia's guidelines regarding sourcing and verifiability are quite clear on this. THD3 (talk) 23:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Robert Benevides, Burr's longtime partner recently was interviewed and explained, in part, that most of Burr's relatives have died off so he's no longer worried about offending them. Also, for those who would suggest that this issue has no, or little bearing on Burr's life or work I respcetfully suggest you are quite mistaken. We may never know the true impact of keeping ones sexuality or other personal information private but Benevides does state he is writing his own book and that Burr with a publicist had invented past wives and a dead son to gain sympathy and enshrine his leading man status in Hollywood. An article about the book, not Benevides' but the one out now, is Burr, in the closet during TV career, comes to life in new book. Banjeboi 04:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

From an interview with Raymond Burr's partner, Robert Benevides. This is a direct quote about an incident in their relationship in which Benevides felt acting was very difficult for him and they agreed Benevides would go another direction: "That was when I decided that I no longer wanted to do that [acting]. I came home one day to talk to Raymond (we had been together about three years) and I saw how easy it was for him and how much he enjoyed being in front of the camera but it was so difficult for me. It was just agony. He [Burr] said, ‘Well you don’t have to do that any more.’" Read the quote at http://www.passportmagazine.com/businessclass/RobertBenevides.php?rand=1 . "We had been together about three years" isn't a phrase that I've EVER heard anyone say about a friend, but only about a romantic interest or partner. And would you and a friend have a discussion about your career and mutually decide that a change in career direction was best for your friendship? It's pretty clearly a romantic relationship. I supposed he doesn't come out and state "Burr was gay," but he is clearly talking about "being together" and mutual career decisions as a couple.70.231.230.63 (talk) 07:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Incomprehensible

After reading this bio, I began trying to edit it into standard English. When I got to the part about Raymond's mother moving to California, I didn't have a clue what the author meant, so I Googled Raymond Burr and came up with many conflicting versions of his life. In one, his mother was a single parent the first 10 years of his life; in one Burr began his acting career in Canada in live theater; another mentions 3 marriages and a son that died of leukemia. I suspect that Mr. Burr invented and re-invented his early life and that this brief bio does it little justice.Ibstubro 20:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

All that one finds on Internet is not the truth, it is only the reflection of what believes or thinks somebody. It is necessary to take some and leave some... Gloubik 21:35, 11 October 2007

The comment about William Hopper needs to be revised. William Hopper was gay, despite two marriages, and this was an open secret in Hollywood. Far from hiding his homosexuality from the cast of Perry Mason, they went to great lengths to protect him. See "Hiding in Plain Sight" and recent books about Hedda Hopper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.81.15.122 (talk) 03:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

A bleeding mess is what this is!

after rummaging through the history on this article, i discovered why and how it's gotten so way outta whack and screwed up. on 24 January 2007, Gcollinsii (talk · contribs) began posting tons of crap, and it's been down-hill ever since. it's my suggestion that we go back, re-boot from that date and try to clean it all up. most, if not all was added without attribution and it is almost completely unintelligible anyway. who's with me? --emerson7 | Talk 02:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. I can't see how it could ever have been good enough for a "Class B" rating from any rater, but stepping back to January will definitely improve it, even though "MISTER Bonobo" is only the most obvious bogus item in that version. Jim.henderson 10:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Honorary Doctorate

Should mention. --Daniel C. Boyer 23:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Involvement in Godzilla

This page details very little of Burr's involvment with his two Godzilla movies. Godzilla being a recognizable world icon, his role as reporter Steve Martin helped introduce audiences outside of Japan to the famous movie series. Godzilla, King of the Monsters!, and to a lesser extent Godzilla 1985, and definitely note worthy films in his filmography.

Fair use rationale for Image:Raymondburrfl.jpg

Image:Raymondburrfl.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Gravesite photo

If anyone wants to do the heavy lifting of checking copyrights and deciding relevance, here's a pic of his grave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcousine (talk • contribs) 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Cause of Death

At one place the article mentions that Burr died of liver cancer...and at another places it says that he died of kidney cancer. Now, which one of this malign diseases caused his death - unless it was both? --83.250.72.173 (talk) 19:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

His cancer initially touched the colon then was propagated to the kidney. User:Gloubik 16:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually several articles and statements released around the time of Burr's death stated that cancer was originally found in his kidney. However, he put off operating on it to finish filming one of the "Perry Mason" Movies. Sadly he waited too long, and when he went back in to see about operating to remove the cancer from the kidney...it was discovered the cancer had spread to his liver. Ultimately Raymond Burr did die from complications due to liver cancer...even though the cancer originated in one or both of his kidneys. (ViceFan (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC))

Filmology

Wasn't that Raymond Burr as the bad guy in Rear Window? I should think that was a major film role and completely out of character. He was the sort that was the good guy, but was convincing and meancing as the killer Jimmy Stewart was peeping at. Given the success of that film, his role should be mentioned. Pamtrek (talk) 01:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Pamtrek

Mistake on the bottom section of the page

Resolved

 – Link corrected - good catch! Banjeboi 16:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a mistake on the bottom of the page in the external link to the TCM movie database, it took me to Tom Canning instead of Raymond Burr.Franklin Delano Roosevelt (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

News articles appearing today say Burr was gay

This article needs to be updated to show that Burr was gay. Numerous articles appeared today are saying so. See ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?id=4930725&page=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.22.207 (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Gay? very poorly sourced

This entry on Raymond Burr's personal life presents "facts" that are all sourced to either heresay or one book, the controversial and unauthorized "biography" called Hiding in Plain Sight. This book was written well after Burr's death when he can neither confirm nor deny it's accuracy. This articles' lack of evidence could constitute slander in our legal system. The editor, Benjiboi, on this discussion page, states matter of factly that Burr "was gay." This is not a statement that this editor can make unless he has personal knowledge of such, which he most certainly would not have. Another commenter states that the alleged gay partner of Burr's is writing a book to confirm all this. Well if that is so then any citing of such must wait until the book is published, if indeed it ever is. This substitution of editor opinion and sensationalism in place of of professionalism and basic journalistic fact finding are one of Wiki's biggest downfalls. Wiki will never rise above shady periodical status until facts are treated as facts and opinions as opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.67.180 (talk) (contribs)06:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Amen...could not have said it better! (ViceFan (talk) 07:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC))

The section on Burr's sexuality meets Wikipedia guidelines for verifiability.THD3 (talk) 11:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of rumor and innuendo to me...people have a right to their opinions...but that's all they are. Not a lot of actual FACT in that section. (ViceFan (talk) 07:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC))

Citizenship

Did he gain US citizenship? Qzm (talk) 00:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about that, but the article doesn't mention that he was one of the best known news readers in Canada during the 1930s. He had a school for radio announcers in Toronto, so he was well known and must have done this for some years. I will have to research it to figure out the chronology and details.~~ Nacken~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nacken (talk • contribs) 02:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Raymond Burr a newsreader? Are you sure you're not thinking of Lorne Greene, who started his career with CBC Radio in his native Ottawa and was national news anchor during World War II.

2601:645:C300:3950:DD17:3F49:C1B4:100D (talk) 04:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Personal life overhaul

I reworked the personal life section. I took out a paragraph that read:

Burr's biographer, Ona L. Hill, wrote that “no one by the name of "Annette Sutherland Burr" was listed as a passenger on the plane”. In fact, only one of Burr's wives, Isabella Ward, can actually be documented. They were married in 1947 and divorced in 1952; reports of the marriage having been annulled are untrue. The other "wives" appear to have never existed (Sutherland was said to be a British actress, yet British Actors' Equity Association has no record of anyone by that name). The same goes for Burr's "son", who is said to have died from an incurable disease sometime in the 1950s. There is no record anywhere of his birth, existence or death.

I was not sure if all the details here were attributed to Hill. I felt that the whole thing needed to be cited (and I put the "citation needed" tag on those details). It sounded like a non-neutral rant to me. I replaced it with a more neutral paragraph that explained the same content.

As I re-wrote the section I took into consideration statements that had been made on this page concerning his sexuality. It seems to me that, at least to some degree, there is a bit of controversy as to whether or not he was gay. For that reason, I tried to balance what had been known about him prior to his death with what was claimed about him after his death. The way it reads now it does not say he was either heterosexual or homosexual. The message actually is that Burr was either a heterosexual man who some people now claim was homosexual or he was a homosexual man who hid that fact from the public during his life time. The reader can decide, because, after all he really took the truth to the grave and either point of view can be sourced by secondary sources. I hope to continue working on this article and some day have it listed as a "Good Article". Take Care--Ishtar456 (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

FLIGHT 777: Need to reconcil this page with the BOAC Flight 777-A article where it states: "It has been reported that Annette Sutherland Burr, wife of actor Raymond Burr, also perished on Flight 777. However, Burr's biographer Ona L. Hill writes that "no one by the name of Annette Sutherland Burr was listed as a passenger on the plane" and that Sutherland was on a separate commercial plane between Lisbon and London around the same time as Flight 777, which was also shot down by the Germans" (with two attributions to this - 10 & 11).

Either this woman was on flight 777 or she was not and the two articles should agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.244.214.59 (talk) 13:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Did this "Scottish actress Annette Sunderland" exist at all, or was she completely made up? And what of the other alleged wife, Laura Andrina Morgan, the mother of Burr's apparently fictitious son Michael? The article doesn't make it clear. Muzilon (talk) 06:20, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

You mean Sutherland? It seems pretty clear to me, from reading this, that they were all fictitious. I don't have access to the sourcing and I'm not sure the point can be made clearer without branching into OR. Coretheapple (talk) 20:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Uh, yeah, Sutherland. Actually the NY Times obit says the phantom son, Michael, was Annette Sutherland's child, not Laura Morgan's. It can't be easy keeping a bogus family tree straight. I'm currently working on the Wiki article for John Dall, another gay Hollywood actor. He too told journalists that he was divorced, but there seem to be no traces of his alleged ex-wife so far. Muzilon (talk) 21:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

source this quote

I removed this quote because it had no citation. If someone can give it a citation then please return it.

"When I was talking to Dennis Hopper about that," Wood biographer Suzanne Finstad says, "he was saying, I just can't wrap my mind around that one. But you know, I saw them together. They were definitely a couple. Who knows what was going on there?".

Take Care,--Ishtar456 (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this original research...

...or can it be cited?

the lack of continuity, the lack of Burr and his chemistry with Hale, and the lack of long term familiarity with the new characters saw sharp declines in the ratings until the entire series was concluded.)

--Ishtar456 (talk) 01:04, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No, that's WP:POV and would definitely require a supporting reference. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

citatons for quote sections

If anyone can add citations to this section, please do and return it to the article:

Raymond Burr quotes

• "Try to live your life the way you wish other people would live theirs."

• "Perry Mason is a marvelous show because it has so much to do with peoples' lives and television. People were buying television sets when Perry Mason first went on, and it all goes back to that nostalgia."

• "I'm a fine guy to be an actor. Can't stand to have my picture taken."

• "I'm too busy to sleep. Actually, my stand-in, Lee Miller, does my sleeping for me."

• On reprising his role as Perry Mason in 1985: "When I sat down at the defense table again, it was as if 25 years had been taken off my life. I don't think there's anything wrong with returning to a character. I played Macbeth when I was 19, and I would do it again. But of course, I wouldn't do it exactly the same way. Similarly, I hope there's been a progression in the way I play Perry Mason."

• On being typecast as Perry Mason: "I find myself resorting to tricks and devices. I do things for the sake of the series that I never before would have done as an actor."

• On people with special needs: "You can imagine what happens with people who are really handicapped and really crippled, that they have to spend hours in wheelchairs. The only time I had any back trouble in my life was from the time I had to spend in a chair. Yet, I was grateful for the opportunity."

• On his brief romance with Natalie Wood: "I was very attracted to her. I think she was to me."

--Ishtar456 (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there a source for this?

As you can tell, I am removing anything that I can not find a citation for and placing it here for discussion. When I get done adding citations I'm going to nominate this article for GA status. So if there is anything here that you have contributed that you want kept in the article then please added a citation and put the information back in the article.

In reprising the role of Ironside, Burr was forced to dye his hair red and change his beard in order not to look too much like Perry Mason.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 00:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The breed may have recommended itself to Burr because Benevides was of Portuguese descent.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 01:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Burr bequeathed the bulk of his estate to Benevides. Burr had earned enormous sums of money from his two successful television series and had vast business interests, but years of extravagant spending, his legendary generosity, market reversals, business expenditures, and increasing taxes had placed the state in a very complicated and perilous position. The remaining assets were substantial enough however, that Burr's will was challenged by his niece, Minerva, who began a public feud with Benevides over who should be his heir. The Court ultimately ruled in favor of Benevides, in part because of the men's professional association. The estate was eventually made solvent again. Benevides remains the proprietor of the Raymond Burr Vineyards in Healdsburg, California which has in the years since Burr's death won awards and numerous wine shows.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Burr and Talman were both professionals and wise enough to realize that new or inexperienced actors could be extremely nervous during filming. In order to calm them Burr and Talman would purposely blow some of their own lines, thereby relaxing everyone else on the set.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 01:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Burr had always been unconventionally heavy for a romantic lead, but in his later years he became increasingly obese. By the time of his Perry Mason television movies he suffered from several obesity related illnesses including diabetes, high blood pressure, and bad knees, as well as the usual health concerns of aging.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 13:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Please provide source for this

I really, really tried to find the source of this info. If you know it, please add it:

In late 1992, Burr was found to have cancer in his left kidney, but he refused to undergo surgery as this would have interfered with the shooting schedule of his final two television movies.

--Ishtar456 (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

You know what is wrong with this article?

Practically the whole thing was at one time a "cut and paste" from a blog http://www.digitaldeliftp.com/DigitalDeliToo/dd2jb-Pat-Novak-for-Hire.htmllog. I might just give up!--Ishtar456 (talk) 14:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Good article

Excellent work on this. However, you;ll need to add a full filmography using a proper table. If it is too big for the article then you can create a Raymond Burr filmography. See Clint Eastwood filmography for example. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

augh, I hate making tables, but thanks for the tip.--Ishtar456 (talk) 19:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Raymond Burr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk) 01:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

---

Parts of this article are decent, but in the most important aspects the article is far from GA quality.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   I didn't evaluate the prose, due to more serious issues. The footnote formatting is very uneven, with newspaper stories not always in quotes, newspaper names not always in italics, a mixture of written-out dates and YYYY-MM-DD dates, and the two references to Raymond Burr: A Film, Radio and Television Biography handled completely differently. The film name in the top caption needs to be italics, not quotes. When People magazine is mentioned in the article text it needs to be linked and in italics.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   This is a major concern given the nature of this subject. This article has to be researched with a fine tooth comb, looking at all available sources and evaluating which are correct. In cases where this is not clear, the question should be raised in a "Notes" section apart from the citation footnotes. Note that NNDB is not a reliable source and cannot be used. IMDB for awards may be okay, but a book source would be better. There should be more citing to the two published book-length biographies of him, assuming those are considered accurate in factual accounting (even if their emphasis or slant might be off). Some of the websites used look a little iffy.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   This is the biggest problem; see below for more.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   The article seems neutral and fair in this respect.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   I guess so, although the talk page doesn't give complete confidence.

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The two images need WP:ALT descriptions.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

There's a lot that is missing from this article, most concerning his acting abilities and characteristics. This is, after all, what he became famous for, and that should constitute the bulk of the article, especially in the Perry Mason period. In particular:

• What characteristics of his acting made him effective in roles as a heavy?
• How did he convey menance in his Rear Window role (which was, as the article states, his most well known of these)?
• How was he able to avoid typecasting and make the transition from playing bad guys to good guys?
• The circumstances of his initial Godzilla role should be briefly mentioned (new footage shot for North American release).
• The Godzilla remake/Razzie material should be moved down, into proper chronological place.
• What was it about his voice that was distinctive? There's one mention, but a good deal more is needed.
• What was it about his physical appearance that was distinctive, and ultimately attractive in a leading role?
• Most importantly, what was it about his portrayal of Perry Mason that 'clicked'? His persona, his gravitas, something ... Perry Mason became an iconic screen presence, and Burr's role in that needs to be a focal point of the article.
• The same for Ironside, to a somewhat lesser extent.
• How did Burr differentiate his Ironside persona from the familiar Mason one? Was he worried about being typecast?
• What did critics say about Burr's acting, in the Mason role, in the Ironside role, in general? What limitations as an actor did he have?
• The balance of this section is off – there's more on the Perry Mason remakes than the original, which is backwards.
• His weight issues in his early and later years, and how it affected his acting and his roles, needs to be mentioned (not a lot, but can't be ignored).

The handling of Burr's hidden life and fabricated biography is done reasonable well in the article, but could use improvement in areas:

• A more detailed account of his time in the military. What unit, what actions, how wounded, etc. And some notes-level discussion of the claims that he fabricated some/all of this.
• Some explanation of the kind of reception that a public homosexual would get during the period of his career should be added, for the benefit of younger readers who may not realize what it was like back then.
• The article can't decide whether Burr was gay for sure or just maybe. Thus "Hiding in Plain Sight, a 2008 biography of Burr written by Michael Starr, claimed that Raymond Burr was homosexual, but hid his sexuality for most of his life out of fear that it would damage his career." Is this really only a "claim"? Does any reliable source doubt this at this point, or doubt the long relationship with Benevides? I haven't done the research into all the sources, but unless there's a good case to be made otherwise, the article should just tell it like it was.
• If the "second" marriage was true, the dates of it should be given, if known.
• That the NYT obit got semi-fooled by Burr's fabrications should be noted, as it indicates the magnitude of the false bio.
• The items listed on the talk page as removed from the article for being uncited should be researched, and added back in with cites if true.

I'm not putting this GA status on hold, because the issues here are too severe for this article to be improved in the typical hold period of time. Good luck with it, this is going to require a lot of diligent research to do a good and complete and fair job. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Sexual orientation

I came to this entry with no pre-conceived notions about Burr's sexuality. I think it's quite clear that he was homosexual and I find no evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that the first news of this was developed as a scandal story is distasteful but doesn't change the fact. I've tried to re-write much of the article to avoid the scandal-sheet/Hollywood bio tone, and I hope to continue to work at that, though I'm not really a devotee of Hollywood bios.

Burr's relationship with Benevides is well documented and Burr left RB his estate. They lived together for 30+ years. Other sources like Picerni and people quoted in Finstad's book on Natalie Wood corroborate the assessment of Burr as fundamentally gay in the 1950s. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

For an acting career that spanned 53 years there is no reason for the Sexual Oroentation section to dominate the article. – Lionel ^(talk) 01:50, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

So build up the rest!!! We each work on the things that interest us. What have you added? Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm copy this discussion from Lionel's talk page.

The "balance" tag you added to Raymond Burr results in a message that says that one viewpoint is being overemphasized. Is that what you think the problem is? Do you have a problem with the view that RB was gay?

From the comment you left on the talk page and what you wrote in the edit field, your objection seems to be that the 'amount of coverage is the problem, not the point of view. In that case I think the tag you want is "cleanup-weighted" and perhaps in the right location "expand section" or "missing information". Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

If you click on the link in the tag it takes you to WP:UNDUE. There is undue weight being placed on his sexuality, and his career is being neglected. – Lionel ^(talk) 04:43, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The discussion there is about giving undue weight to differing viewpoints'. It's about not giving more weight to minority views than is appropriate. That's not what you object to. You have identified no opposing viewpoint, minority or otherwise.

Your objection is to the depth of coverage of different aspects of his life. The "cleanup-weighted" tag produces a message that is exactly in line with what you are saying:

I'll copy this to the RB Talk page, too. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the difference between unbalanced viewpoints on the one hand and badly weighted coverage of different aspects of a subject on the other are pretty clear. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:56, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Article is very well done, very much thanks to Bmclaughlin9! :) kiranerys(u,c) 19:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is well balanced, and does not place undue emphasis on any aspect of Burr's life. IMO, the tag should be removed.THD3 (talk) 20:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Seconded and  Donekiranerys(u,c) 21:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually the "sexual orientation" section is still not appropriate. It still seems rather questionable to me to have such a section at all. The important facts of person's private life are usually compiled in a private life section and the informaton regarding his sexual orientation should be included rather than having a separate section. Moreover the content of this current section seems somewhat unorganized and not to the point, as much of the content isn't really about his sexual orientation at all. This is an encylopedic article, so we should just summarize the most important aspects rather than recounting details ans speculation of the "journalistic research". The whole section should be condensed into a few sentences, which should be included in a private life section.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The section on "Sexual orientation" already appears under "Personal life". I just made some slight changes. I moved a heading and suppressed some info by sticking it in a footnote instead of the body of the text.

The other material on this Talk page shows one reason why we have a heading for sexual orientation and need to do more than just say "Burr was gay" with citations. If you just cite a few authors, they are easily dismissed against Burr's own word. Therefore it became necessary to provide details from the people who are quoted in those citations. A second reason is that it's not just a question of a biographical detail, like John Doe was of Scottish descent or the youngest of four children. Burr was gay and' in a long-term relationship and lied about his sexual orientation. Lied creatively and elaborately. So something of the texture of his life and the extent of his lies -- an invented child with a terminal illness -- seems appropriate.

Speculation? You'd have to specify what you mean. The assessments of eyewitness contemporaries seem relevant to me, since the issue we are describing is Burr's dissembling and his success/failure at that seems a critical part of his life, how he was perceived by contemporaries and the extent to which he revealed himself to them.

What do you find "unorganized and not to the point"? Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Perry Mason television movies (1985-1993)

Hi, I recently added a section to the filmography for the Perry Mason movies. I was afraid to list them all en masse, as that section is officially a 'Selected' filmography, so I think it may be fine as it is, though perhaps some term tweaking of my additions would be appropriate. Any ideas? kiranerys(u,c) 22:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Lost wife and kids in a house fire?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I seem to recall a newspaper story from my teenage years (mid-60s) where Burr's lack of and wife and kids was attributed to losing them in a house fire. I swallowed that hook, line and sinker; just as most Australians believed that Merle Oberon was one of us, because we were told so and had no reason to disbelieve the fantasy. But I see no reference to any supposed house fire in Burr's article or online. Who am I confusing him with? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

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Category - Male actors from San Francisco??

Burr was born in Canada but this article is in the WP category "Male Actors From San Francisco". He may have died in the San Francisco Bay area, but he wasn't technically "from" there, was he? Muzilon (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

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An actor's voice is an important physical characteristic

I am replacing a description of his voice in the "Physical Characteristics" section, which was removed. An actor's vocal quality is one of his most important physical characteristics! HandsomeMrToad (talk) 05:01, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Spurious Note in physical characteristic

The note in Physical Characteristics "A character in a 1989 short story refers to Burr as "grossly overweight" in Ironside." is spurious and was removed. The point about Mason's weight was already established The short story and author, Cheroff, while published, are not of any literary or pop cultural prominence, and its inclusion is more body-shaming than an informative editorial contribution. User:TheLoneContributer (talk) 013:03, 03 July 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:E48B:B600:70BB:C242:2E5D:AF9A (talk)

Way too gay?

The text goes on and on about his sexuality in several different places. Should be consolidated to 2-3 short sentences in one place, not three. His gayness, though I'm sure sensationally fascinating to some, is not a main feature of his life story. The way the article reads now, we might was well have this way up top in the lead:

Raymond Burr was a famous closeted gay actor who never came out but we knew, oh yes, we knew, born ... etc. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with this removal and lament its reinstatement. The IP nailed it and the reinstater failed it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Physical Characteristics

In this section, it's saying that he refused to go on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. While that may be something he said, he did in fact go on the show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us-udbc0RSQ 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:544F:E012:2320:EFE4 (talk) 20:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)