Talk:Vistula Land

Talks of 2005

Most of the statements were not true see my comments on that page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Polish_rulers

Cautious 23:32, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

'Vistulan Country (Russian Привислинский Край, Privislinskiy Kray) was an informal name of the Polish lands incorporated into Imperial Russia after the fall of the November Uprising.' It is not true. This name was introduced sometime in 1880 Cautious 23:38, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nope, it was in use since 1840s. Not by Poles, though. Halibutt

'In 1832 all voivodships that constituted the Kingdom of Poland were turned into gubernias and became an integral part of Russia, ruled directly by the Russian tsars. ' False. Theoretically in 1832 there were introduced separate status for former Polish Kingdom. The basic law was never put in action though. Cautious 23:38, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's why I mentioned the de facto status, not the theory. Feel free to expand it and add the link to Organic Statute for the Kingdom of Poland. Halibutt

'In 1831 the Polish Army, constitution, Sejm and local self-administration were disbanded. Also all universities were closed, only to be reopened several years later as purely-Russian high schools.' Partly true. The Russian University was opened after 1870. Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

So change the word soon to any other you like. Halibutt

'Initially the territory maintained certain degree of autonomy than other gubernias.' So it is opposite to what was stated above. Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how it is contradictory. Halibutt

'The former Kingdom of Poland continued to use the Polish currency (złoty) and the Administrative Council retained some of its privileges (although it was directly controlled by the Russian governor Field Marshal Ivan Paskevich).' True Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

'However, by 1832 the currency and the customs border were abolished, as was the metric system and penal code. ' I am not sure when Polish zloty was reaplced, but custom border was replaced much later and it started industrial development of Kongress Kingdom. I would bet on 185?. I am pretty sure that Polish code was in place untill 193? Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. 1837 - Gubernias introduced. 1841 — złoty abolished. 1847 — Russian penal code introduced (though it was in use since 1831 - after all most of those who were resettled to Siberia were sentenced for conspiracy against the tsar (Russian law), not for high treason (Polish law). Halibutt

'Also the Catholic Church was persecuted and most monasteries were closed and nationalised while the Uniate Church was officially banned and most of its followers were treated as Orthodox.' The latter happenned only in 1839 and 1875. Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to add the dates. Halibutt

'After the January Uprising in 1863 the Polish language was banned from office and education and the process of incorporation of the Polish gubernias and russification of its administration was completed. ' Not really, since Russia itself was not well integrated. Cautious 23:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't get it. Are you arguing that the administration was not russified? Or that the "Polish" gubernias were still somehow different from, let's say, gubernia of Tomsk or Tsaritsyn? What is it that you are actually disputing? Halibutt

During World War I, in 1915 the area was occupied by the Central Powers and in 1917 Russia ceded all Polish lands to Germany and Austria-Hungary, who created a puppet Kingdom of Poland there.

So..? Halibutt 06:44, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Proper translation from PL.WP

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move per WP:COMMONNAME. JPG-GR (talk) 00:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

In Polish, the area in question is called Kraj Przywiślański, this is properly translated into Vistulan Country. Even Google translate the PL.WP page into Vistulan Country. Any particular reason why EN.WP isn't using Vistulan Country?

Ajh1492 (talk) 02:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. We have three quotations, all of which use Vistula Land or Country as the English name. That is enough to suggest that we should too. (There is no particular reason to trust the Sprachgefuehl of a mechanical translator (see invisible idiot); and there is no real reason, on this topic, to translate from Polish rather than Russian - we are, after all, discussing a Russian administrative term.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Support Kraj or Krai both hand translate into Country not Land. Neither Krai or Kraj are common used words in English. Ajh1492 (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

So? The question is what is the common term used for this entity in English?. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

(Russian: Привислянский Край, Privislyansky Krai) and (Polish: Kraj Przywiślański) both translate into Vistulan Country. Ajh1492 (talk) 00:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The "proper" translation is the one English-language sources actually use. Show us what English-language sources actually use, and we'll use that. The small usage evidence from PMAnderson indicates that we're already at the right title; if the reality is otherwise, give proof. Knepflerle (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Screening out all obvious EN.WP mirrors, I find that genealogy and history websites refer to the area as Vistulan Country vs Vistula Land.

• genealogy
• history
• history
• history
• genealogy
• history
• history

• Russian_history,_1796-1855 (referencing US Library of Congress as source material)

Genealogy would be a good reference point for current English-language common usage.

Ajh1492 (talk) 03:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name and purpose

I am trying to figure out how to place this article in our encyclopedic structure. Currently this article describes how Congress Poland lost its autonomy over the course of its existence. Should it describe something more? Two questions to start with:

• what is the best name to use on Wikipedia (see above, and I've just finished a merge from Privislinsky Krai...)
• was the name Privislinsky Krai used officially? If we agree that officially the state of Congress Poland existed till 1915 (or 1917?), what about the Privislinsky Krai? Some editors occasionally argue that Privislinsky Krai replaced Congress Poland in 1867; some that the term was used as early as 1830s and 1840s, and some, that is was but an unofficial (or semi-official) name...

--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you yourself upload a Russian map of Privislinsky Krai in 2007? Anyway, yes, it was an official name, in use since 1867. I might have some books to use as sources (to support the dates etc.), but I'll need to dig them up from the storage, which might take a few days. Hope this helps in the meanwhile.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:19, March 11, 2009 (UTC)

Replied on Ezhiki's talk.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:25, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Congress Poland ceased to exist with the Reforms of 1867. The whole point of the Tsar's action was to expunge Poland from the map. Even PL:WP uses Privislinsky Krai. You were a little too fast with the revert. Ajh1492 (talk) 20:30, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

If you want to change the name of the article, you should go through WP:RM, and certainly you should avoid creating content forks; in other words - we don't need two articles on the same subject, but one (this one). You can add content to it, and we can rename it once we reach the consensus.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

To centralize the discussion, please direct any replies to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Privislinsky_Krai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

One source (Norman Davies, God's Playground, volume II, Columbia University Press, 1982) says (p. 82) that "The Russian Partition... [a]fter 1864 absorbed the Congress Kingdom of Poland, which, renamed Vistulaland, was ruled as part of the Empire."

On p. 364 Davies says: "In 1864, both the Kingdom and the name of Poland were formally abolished. The Tsar relinquished his duties as King of Poland, and Warsaw became the capital of the Privislinsky kray (Vistulaland)."

Nevertheless, the term "Kingdom of Poland" continued to appear unofficially, as in the name of the political party, "Social Democracy of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania" (formed as late as 1900: p. 541).

I would, however, differ with Davies regarding English terminology. To my ear, "Vistula Country" sounds much better than "Vistula land" or "Vistulaland," which sounds like one of the divisions of Disneyland. And certainly, whether "Land" or "Country," in English the word should be capitalized. Nihil novi (talk) 07:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

If "Vistula Land" were the correct English rendering, then the original name should have been "Privislyanskaya Zyemlya" in Russian—"Przywiślańska Ziemia" in Polish. But the name was actually "Privislyansky Krai" and "Przywiślański Kraj," respectively—that is, "Vistula Country." The article's title, and the name of the geographic entity, should accordingly be corrected to "Vistula Country." Nihil novi (talk) 05:19, 28 March 2009 (UTC)